I shall use this literally every time I get the retort, “Well who created God??”
Despite the fact it has been refuted repeatedly, I still get it quite a lot.
I shall use this literally every time I get the retort, “Well who created God??”
Despite the fact it has been refuted repeatedly, I still get it quite a lot.
The final Way of Atheism from Geoffrey Berg is the Some of God’s Defining Qualities Cannot Exist argument. After tackling this argument, three things remain with this project.
First, I will contact Geoffrey Berg via his website to see if he is interested in rebutting my points.
Second, I want to reread the Fifth Way just to see if there are any points I missed.
Finally, I will start replying to the comments I’ve received thus far on all Six Ways.
All right, Mr. Berg, so far the arguments are stinkers. One final shot: impress me…
I agree with (1).
Ooooh… I have to take some exception with (2).
On pages 156-157, Berg outlines that there is no purpose to life based on the fact that he’s never gotten a good answer from a theist. That’s a terrible reason to conclude that there is no purpose for life.
The answer, I think, lies in two prongs. First, we exist because God has purposed an outcome to this universe and we are to play a role in it. As Isaiah points out, God has declared the end from the beginning (Is 46:10). Human history is building to a final outcome purposed by and brought about by God. We are agents of that by God’s design.
We do not know what ultimate part we play, and that leads us to the second reason we exist: the journey of discovery that is life. This journey becomes the foundation for our eternity. If life on earth is a geometric plane, then life in eternity is geometric space. If our life takes the shape of a circle, then in eternity it will inevitably be a sphere.
Which means that we need to take the time to investigate what it means to live a “good life.” Because the foundation we are laying now determines the shape of our lives to come. The foundation is irreversible; we want to lay the best one we can, and that means living right by God’s standards.
As Berg says, “to worship God” isn’t a very good reason to exist. It is part of what we are to do, but it isn’t the end of the story. God created the first humans to tend the Garden of Eden — to superintend and care for creation. We perverted our own purpose when we first chose to disobey God, but the corruption of a thing shouldn’t be confused with the thing. Meaning, we should recapture our original purpose by realizing that life is (as Berg points out) about the journey as much as the destination.
And, keeping with the superintendence idea, leave the Earth a little better than we found it.
None of this, of course, is possible apart from God. And that renders premise (2) faulty. Meaning (3) is not a correct conclusion.
Now, essentially, I’ve left the purpose of life open for each individual to find his or her own. In so doing, I have actually made an objection that Berg anticipates; though he phrases it quite differently. His basic answer to reassert that there is no ultimate purpose for life, even if you’re searching. Berg gives the general objection that each purpose one finds leads one to ask what the purpose of that purpose is.
To that, I remind everyone that there is no need to explain an explanation. If we would have concluded that the purpose of life is to have kids, then that’s the purpose of life. Asking, “Why have kids?” is redundant because it’s the purpose of life.
Showing that the purpose of this life is to lay a foundation for an eternal existence, however, does not fall prey to the infinite regress of asking “For what purpose?” If I’m right, there is no need to ask for additional clarification because starting eternity off right is an end in and of itself.
This might be my favorite argument in Geoffrey Berg’s book, The Six Ways of Atheism. My favorite, because of how ridiculous it is.
It appears that Berg and I agree on that, for he opens the chapter:
This is my favourite argument against the existence of God and I believe it is a decisive and absolute disproof against the existence of God. (97)
The advance press does not pan out. This proof is not decisive and can actually be refuted in a single paragraph. First, the argument:
God created the universe. A creator always knows the relationship it has to its own creation. Therefore, God may possess a certainty that none of us have since God created the thing about which we are uncertain.
Refuted. Read the rest of this entry
The Fourth Way of Atheism (This is Not the Best Possible World Argument) runs thus:
This would be true if not for one pesky little detail that Berg never addresses. Let’s trace this argument from premise (1) to its conclusion to see where it goes awry.
I absolutely agree with (1). No doubt that a being who wasn’t omnipotent, supremely good, and our ultimate creator would not be God in any sense of the term.
I agree with (2) in the sense that God did create the best possible world. See Genesis 1:31 — creation is described as “very good” from God’s perspective. It is doubtful that an omnipotent, perfectly good being would describe anything but the best possible world as “very good.”
(3) is true, but it skips a step — the Fall!
The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” (Gen 3:12-13, emphasis added)
After dealing with the serpent and Eve, God turns to Adam:
Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” (Gen 3:17-19, emphasis added)
So now the world we see today is a punishment because of the transgression of Adam. So this is not the best possible world; it was, now it is cursed because of the actions of humanity in defiance to God.
Once we understand that God created the best possible world, but cursed it to punish humanity, we realize that this argument doesn’t hold water.
All of the anticipated objections that Berg deals with are softball responses and so require no comment from me. My objection, as always, is not anticipated.
Starting with (1), I agree that God should provide the answers to all of the ultimate questions. When explaining the argument, however, Berg lists attributes of God (eternal, absolute good, purpose-giver) rather than explaining what big questions he means. He only ends up asking one: How did the universe arise?
… [T]he answer for theists is, of course, God created it. How did God arise? Well, God has always existed. But, why then, has the Universe not always existed? Thus God can be cut out as an unnecessary extra. Poor God, always being cut out as an unnecessary extra that contributes nothing to understanding except complication. God is no more than a valueless extra intermediary stage in explanation. (p. 64)
This didn’t work for Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion, and it isn’t going to work for Berg now. “Who made God?” is not a valid retort. Read the rest of this entry
This Man and God Comprehension Gulf Argument is formulated as follows:
I have no issues with either premises. Man is finite per (1), and God is infinite per (2). Neither is a problem for me.
As a conclusion, (3) overreaches; Berg should have stuck with the first clause: “Therefore mankind cannot possibly recognize God … .” That would have been a far more reasonable conclusion given the data. Still a demonstrably false conclusion, but a much more reasonable one.
As for “… even know that God exists,” that is simply not true. God is the inference to the best explanation: we see design, order, natural laws — the universe makes sense. It works together like a machine, and machines are designed and built by an intelligent mind for a purpose.
Therefore, God is a reasonable conclusion from natural philosophy (even if a controversial one). So I disagree that mankind cannot “… even know that God exists.” Read the rest of this entry
In my Twitter feed, I found a disagreement among a few Twitter users. One Christian was getting pummeled by a group of atheists. Julie Ann (@__iplay4god) would try to fend off the attacks with logical retorts, and the logical retorts were then rebuffed by the atheists using Scripture.
Supposedly, the Scripture “proved” that she was disobedient to God, or that she was contradicting God’s clear command. However, in each case, the atheists were twisting the meaning of the passages to “Pants on Fire” proportions.
I will now take on two such questionable interpretations. First, JoeUnseen on Proverbs:
Interesting way of looking at that. Now let’s look at the actual wording:
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
That mentions nothing about religion. King Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, wasn’t writing a how-to guide on doing religion or evangelism. He was writing a guide for living.
This is an example of simple wisdom, not a command for indoctrination. It calls for disciplining your children properly. Doing so in their formative years means that they will be far more likely to walk the straight-and-narrow.
Second, Jeff Groves on proving God to unbelievers:
Is that what Jesus had in mind? Again, the actual words:
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, …
The question, then, revolves around what it means to “make disciples” — which is literally mentoring people. As Jesus mentored his disciples, they were to then go into the world and mentor others. And still today we, the chosen of God, are to disciple others and teach them the Christian faith.
Some might think that implies somehow “proving” God exists, but that’s not it at all. God is self-evident: no proof needed. In Twitterspeak:
Those who ask for proof have already gotten all they are going to get in Jesus’ death and subsequent resurrection. That was all Jesus gave the generation walking the earth in his time, and should be more than sufficient for all time.
Ephesians 4:18 and 2 Peter 3:15-17 suggest that those who are not in Christ cannot rightly understand the Word of God. Moreover, these enemies of God twist the Scriptures — and do so to their own destruction, unfortunately destabilizing well-meaning Christians.
Peter warned us 2000 years ago. A warning more timely than ever!
Geoffrey Berg’s tome, The Six Ways of Atheism, is a small volume but it requires some unpacking to get at the core of what he’s trying to say. I’m going to tackle one argument per post and we should get through the book by Saturday.
Let’s dive in to the first argument, the Aggregate of Qualities Argument:
This argument fails to disprove God as Christians defend him. Berg states repeatedly that there is little chance a being in this universe possesses any of these qualities, let alone all of them. Agreed. But we never argue that God is part of the universe. Which means all of Berg’s statistical analysis and posturing about how language glosses over reality is moot. His rantings only apply to beings originating in and living in the known universe. God transcends that universe, and therefore isn’t subject to laws that define the universe.
Berg anticipated seven potential responses; this was (oddly) not one of them. All of the objections he considered were pathetic and require no rejoinder from me.
So Berg and I agree that God doesn’t exist in the known universe. That is only equal to “God doesn’t exist at all” given metaphysical naturalism.
Geoffrey Berg has written a book with six new or improved arguments against God. I disagree — not one argument is new and nothing is improved. In fact, even atheists make fun of this guy (see Daniel Florien’s post here).
I am only writing on this for one reason, and one reason alone: my new resolution to finish things that I start! I already wrote on the First Way of atheism. Then I said I’d move on with the other disproofs Berg offered. I never did. I gave up, just like I give up on lots of things.
I am going to finish that which I start from now on. This comes in two parts: previous posts and projects. Regular readers will undoubtedly have noticed the first part of this resolution — I am far more active in the comments section than I ever have been. I’m actually responding to challenges, instead of letting them slide!
The second part is projects — posts that I said I’d write but never actually did. I was saddened when I read back through my blog, deleting posts that I no longer agreed with. Whenever I got to something tagged “Site News,” there would be a list of posts I planned on writing. And none of them ever materialized. I was a tad horrified. To rectify that, I’m going to write some of those posts, and finish some of the projects that I said I’d do.
One of the projects I started long ago was making a website with responses to all of the most popular atheist books. So what I’ll do is continue with this project, and the first
victim book I’ll visit is The Six Ways of Atheism.
Before I get started dismantling this piece of crap, I want to address one of Berg’s comments in the introduction. He said:
Nor do I really wish to deal with my own personal status. Essentially the arguments I put are valid or invalid irrespective of whether they are original to me or not. It is the arguments I want to be considered, not the person putting the arguments. (p. 12)
He then goes on to complain about intellectual elitism in philosophy, and how you can succeed in business with no degree, but for philosophy, you need a Ph.D. or they won’t take you seriously.
Well, not surprisingly, I disagree. It all depends on the arguments. If you make good arguments and do your homework, people will take you seriously — even academics with tons of letters after their proper names.
Take me. I have an associate’s degree in business. That’s it. I have no training in theology or philosophy, not even a 101 class. However, I’ve had opponents ask what academic journals I’ve published in. Once, I made a silly (but logically valid) argument to get out of doing something at work, and my boss said snidely, “I can tell you have a degree in philosophy.”
Despite my lack of formal training, I have been recognized as a thinker in philosophy of religion. I have detractors as well — most famously Austin Cline of atheism.about.com said I do not possess the intellectual honesty to even claim the title of “armchair philosopher.” A hit-and-run commenter on this blog said that were I to publish a book on philosophy of religion or Christian apologetics, it would be an insult to people who actually bothered to go to school to get degrees.
There are people who think Plato and Aristotle are hacks, too. As I frequently say, any idiot can start a blog. Any dummy can self-publish a book. My overall point still stands: it doesn’t matter where the argument comes from as long as it is a solid argument. If it’s good, people of all stripes will take notice. Your book will sell. Your blog will gain a following.
In that spirit, I am not going to consider Berg or his qualifications, only his arguments. I will not make any snide comments about how Berg is obviously not a philosopher, because his arguments are as naive as Steve Carrel’s character in 40-year-old Virgin. Nor am I going to make a comment about how arrogant he is; how the hubris drips off of every page leaving you with the same sticky feeling you have after a workout in high humidity. You won’t read about how he would benefit from hiring a better copy editor than his 10 year old nephew who only worked for Mountain Dew.
No sarcasm. No cheap shots. From now on!
I will only consider the arguments. If the arguments stand, then the source won’t matter.